Joel Hung, born in Hong Kong and now residing in New Zealand, has been contributing his thoughtful insights to this site for a long time. He has helped me make a number of connections between Chinese and Vietnamese cooking -- for example, pointing me to the wealth of Vietnamese cookbooks available in Hong Kong! Joel recently sent a message asking how to define Southeast Asian Cuisine, a new moniker being used by a number of Asian restaurants. Joel wrote:
to the label "Southeast Asian cuisine". In Northeast Asia (HK, mainland
China, Taiwan, Japan and Korea) and the West the term is a blanket
application of food in every ASEAN member countries. Restaurants said
to be specializing in SE Asian food often may have a pan-ASEAN menu: pho
next to pad thai, followed chicken green curry, and beef rendang and
morcon, which may finish with layered kuih or banana in coconut milk as
desserts.
enormously different from each other (for example, Cantonese has almost
nothing in common with much of Pekingese food), and we would never think
of Korean food as "local". Is there a similar thought among people from
Southeast Asian countries when it comes to food from another nation
within Southeast Asia? Even within Vietnam the food from the north is
often different from the south, and let alone comparing with the
cuisine(s) of Indonesia (where Jakarta probably eats very differently
from Papua again). I just don't see whether Thais will feel the food of
the Philippines or Malaysia, or whether Vietnamese in general think of
other ASEAN countries' cuisines are "local".
My gut feeling is Vietnamese may think Cambodian cuisine is probably not
too "foreign" because of the shared borders, and Thai cuisine vaguely
familiar, but when it comes to Malaysian or Filipino food it's probably
as foreign as Greek cuisine. Is that thought correct?
My initial Monday-morning response is that you can talk about the cuisines (note plural) of Southeast Asia but you can't have a monolithic Southeast Asian cuisine. There are cultural connections that people may or may not realize, for example, gigantic Vietnamese steamed bao are very similar to Filipino siopao with the egg and lop cheung sausage filling. How did popia hand rolls travel from Fujian province in China to Southeast Asia, fimly plant itself in Malaysia and Singapore and morph into Vietnamese bo bia handrolls and Thai popia thod? Those are connections to be made and savored not squished together.
Southeast Asian food is hot (literally and figuratively) these days so restaurateurs want to capture the favorites of the entire region. That is a difficult business strategy to fulfill, if not an insult to people who devote themselves to preparing well-crafted renditions of heady pho noodle soup, scintillating beef rendang, and plush som tum green papaya salad.
Would you order a club sandwich, hot dog, or Philly cheese steak sandwich at McDonald's? That seems so inappropriate.
On the other hand, the dining public wants to sample the flavors of Southeast Asia in one sitting. The Malay peninsula (Malaysia and Singapore) is the closest I can think of in terms of where you can broadly sample the flavors of Southeast Asia and Southern China. But those flavors have been filtered through the lense of local cooks using local ingredients tailored to local taste preferences.
I'm leery of restaurants that frame their menu as Southeast Asian. When I'm eating at such establishments, I ask where the chef is from and/or what he/she specializes in and then order those items.
What do you all think?
Krista says
I agree! I've had to eat in a few restaurants "specializing" in "Southeast Asian" food and not only is the menu full of dishes from different regions that don't really compliment each other, but the dishes themselves are often full of different flavours from different regions that don't really compliment each other. Especially in noodle and rice dishes, they really seem to throw in everything but the kitchen sink. The result is food with unbalanced flavours that is trying to be too many things at once. Yuck!
Thuy says
I don't think it is possible. I have eaten in restaurants that "specialize" in different Asian cuisines around the world and the food is AWEFUL. Like Krista stated, the food doesn't compliment each other.
That is like eatting Asian food in Latin America. Asian foods should not taste like the food you eat at the local cantina... can I say gross?
Al says
"Men in the distance have no eyes."
I think Guo Xi said that, but I haven't studied Chinese painting for ages.
It is true that details disappear from a distance, but the whole idea of preparing another cuisine is to experience a "real meal", to get close enough to see the eyes.
Imagine a "European" meal of Boeuf Borguignon and Sauerkraut with Pasta on the side. "But the French have *choucroute* and the Germans have *nudeln* and, and ..."
Of course, it wouldn't be a "bad" meal, and it would be "Euopean." The problem is that it is unfocused and does not bring any of the real cuisines into view.
I love Charmaine Solomon's Asian cookbooks. Thumbing through them it is tempting to mix the prettiest pictures into one lovely tableful. But she is very careful to set the context for each cuisine, and explain its special pantry.
--
On the other hand, it would be fascinating to study border cuisines as separate subjects. Sometimes cuisines change abruptly because of dramatic geographic differences, but wherever edges come together people experiment and exchange.
Al
BigRey says
As with anything else, careful delineation is required when responding to a question such as this. If a country lies within the geographic area known as SE Asia, then its cuisine, in addition to being Identified by country of origin, e.g. Thai, can also correctly be labeled as SE Asian. Even with the myriad cultural differences between countries and within the countries proper, all these cuisines can correctly be labeled SE Asian. I agree with some of the respondents that bad things happen when a chef or retaurateur attempts a fusion of different cuisines within a given dish. Sometimes the flavor profiles are simply not complementary. That doesn't mean, however, that a restaurant can't offer dishes from differing countries or regions within those countries, as long as there is adherence to the fundamental flavor profiles of the food offered. A chef might be skilled in the cuisine of South Vietnam, and the food from Penang for instance. Are respondents trying to say that should never be done? If the principles noted above are followed, why not? Need a cook be from a region to prepare the food of that region? The best French chef I know is Mexican, the best American grill chef I know is Chinese, and one of the best Thai chefs I know is American. Though none were born in the country whose food they specialize in, all spent many years learning the cuisine through study and lots of travel. Should they not prepare those cuisines for the public? Clearly, the answer is why not? So yes, based on geography alone there is a SE Asian cuisine, though it's elements are as many and diverse as the countries within that part of the world. Should one country's food be on the same plate with that of another country? Well, that may or may not be a good idea...
Andrea Nguyen says
There's a town in Vietnam called Chau Doc. It's a border town in the south where they say that if you look across the waters, you see Cambodia. Cross pollination is definitely possible and borders are arbitrary so ideas are moving morphing constantly.
I think what Joel was saying was in the vein of can you throw all of Southeast Asia under one roof? That would be one hell of a talented chef.
As for mixing up different cuisines on a plate, why not? Baguette and curry anyone?
Thuy says
Food will adapt and fusion is bound to happen but not everything goes together.
Joel says
Thanks everyone for your take. BigRey, that was my original idea of a restaurant offering "Southeast Asian cuisine" where you have Malay dish sitting next to a Vietnamese dish etc rather than having the flavours from various regions mixed together. I personally found that even this generic approach a little bit too far stretched because the gulf between the food of Indonesia and Laos is far far wider than between Greece and Norway, for example. There is no way you can have a northern Vietnamese peppery mild spicy dish followed by a Javanese sweet and chilli spicy dishes. The traditions are far too different to be meaningful.
With regards to border cuisines, I think it is entirely possible, for example, the Malay food of Parek in Malaysia is more sour than that of Malacca due to Thai influence, while on the converse side Hat Yai on the Thai side is where the famous Malay-influenced Massaman curry is found. And interestingly, I would dare say Vietnamese food, at least the northern part, is probably closer to Cantonese food due to border movements.
Al says
"Baguette and curry anyone?"
That's the "my starch goes with anything" syndrome.
There was a discussion on eGullet about how well (Italian) pasta goes with Chinese food. It's true. I sometimes make "Ants Climb a Tree" with angel hair. But I am aware that I am (not too subtly) perverting the original dish.
There are really two questions:
Is (con)fusion of distant-therefore-vaguely-defined cuisines bad? Probably not.
Does this (con)fusion produce any insight into the cultures blended? Again, probably not.
There is nothing wrong with using ones own taste as a guide to produce good meals from whatever recipes are at hand, but I think that this can quickly lead to the sort of uniformity that comes from only reading half of a recipe, then "winging it" and really just cooking a slight variation of what one has always cooked before.
At some point, I would prefer to face "Cuisine X" in a way that reflects its origin as closely as possible, in my own kitchen. That is the real fun (for me) of trying different styles in the first place.
Al
Andrea Nguyen says
For years, out of necessity, Asian cookbooks suggested using Italian pasta as a substitute for Chinese egg noodles. Nowadays when Asian ingredients and more available, that practice isn't seen in publications. We've come along way but in a pinch, you can sub.
In Viet cooking, people have used European style noodles in their kitchens but to produce hybrid dishes like garlic noodles. (A recipe is here: http://www.vietworldkitchen.com/blog/2008/08/vietnamese-garlic-noodles.html)
Al, you're absolutely right -- cooks wing it all the time with recipes. We're always doing stuff in our home kitchens that aren't accepted conventions.
Joel is asking about what happens when restaurants formalize the notion of a Southeast Asian cuisine on their menus. How does that change the way people perceive culture and flavors? From a writer and educator's perspective, there's still much to tease out between the various cuisines. People don't understand the differences to appreciate the whole. We've not gone far enough to lump a sub-region of Asian together on the plate.
Al says
It may be that most people will never realize the differences.
Have you ever mentioned sushi, only to have someone suggest a Chinese restaurant? (This was years ago, before EVERYONE had sushi.) The person simply didn't think about the fact that China and Japan have very different cuisines.
They are both "Asian" and many, many people will never know or care to know the difference.
Actually, I don't think many people could tell you the difference between Swedish and Netherlands cuisines.
We care more about the whole context (i.e., history, geography, ethnography) than most people. This allows us to appreciate a well presented meal in a given style, but makes us uneasy with compromises.
I guess the question is how to pull people toward our way of thinking. Cambodian cuisine is significantly different from Thai cuisine, but my friend who confused Japanese with Chinese would never "get it."
Sometimes I am just as bad. Goi cuon is a great follow-up to sashimi.
Al
Johnny says
I'm all for the concept of fusing SEA cooking together to create new and exiting dishes. Also, my family is Viet, my sister-in-law is Filipina and my brother-in-law is Indonesian so when we have a family pot-luck get together you can imagine the different kinds of foods that are on each person's plate! I love SEA food!
As for restaurants specializing in SEA food... Most of the SEA restaurants I've been to sells seperate dishes from different SEA countries (Pho, Pad Thai, Amok, Curry, etc...). Although they do a decent job of making these dishes, they never taste authentic enough for me. I do think they have their place though...especially for introducing SEA food to folks that are too skittish to step into a restaurant in Little Saigon.
Annie says
I tried to write a response to your post a few days ago and deleted THREE drafts in frustration. Maybe that's how I feel about restaurants here trying to do SEA foods. I have not had too many but because I'm from Malaysia and miss the foods from home, I've gone to some of these Malaysian/Singaporean/Thai restaurants (have you noticed how these three seem to always get lumped together?) and have left mostly frustrated. Even when asking where the chef hails from, it's still never as good. Maybe I'm expecting too much but mostly I think it's really hard to get an authentic experience here. The one time I found a place I really liked, on going back several months later, I found that the dishes had evolved to suit the American taste better and left profoundly disappointed.
My bigger concern is that these restaurants leave people who are unfamiliar with this region's cuisines with a very one-dimensional view of their foods. I know it's not possible for everyone to visit the countries in question and this is why I wish that the foods could be represented better here. But then again, this is America--a melting pot of cultures and cuisines and even Italian cuisine here is probably met with disdain in Italy and yet much loved by all here.
So I guess I don't really have an answer to your question, but I have been thinking about it a while. I will say that I am happy that the region is "hot" as I feel it should receive much deserved recognition for the richness of their cuisines and culture.
Robyn Eckhardt says
You can't talk about A 'SE Asian cuisine' - but you can talk about ingredients and their local variations that tie all of the cuisines of SE Asian nations and regions (because when people talk "SE Asia" they usually leave out southern China, which is a mistake) together.
My problem with restaurants that attempt 'SE Asian food' is that the chef or owner or concept artist (it's usually the latter in Asia, I'm afraid) usually doesn't have a rich enough understanding of ALL the cuisines in the region to really tease out commonalities (and delineate differences).
But I could totally see 'SE Asian cuisine' implemented well: a menu that's divided into categories like, for instance, 'sour soups' (or why not a tasting of sour soups from around the region?), or 'fermented fish as primary flavor' (OK, that's not gonna sell with most of America), or 'rice cakes in all their variations'. I could see this done by a very savvy and knowledgeable chef in a sort of upscale setting (to accomodate tasting plates) - and it would be aimed at sophisticated diners. (Or without tasting plates, I would want a menu offering guidance as to what to pair with what when ordering).
But the flavor profiles of the dishes would have to be true to their homes, ie not tom yam gong red the way Malaysians make it, and not Vietnamese specialties too sour, the way Thais make them.
Robyn Eckhardt says
You can't talk about A 'SE Asian cuisine' - but you can talk about ingredients and their local variations that tie all of the cuisines of SE Asian nations and regions (because when people talk "SE Asia" they usually leave out southern China, which is a mistake) together.
My problem with restaurants that attempt 'SE Asian food' is that the chef or owner or concept artist (it's usually the latter in Asia, I'm afraid) usually doesn't have a rich enough understanding of ALL the cuisines in the region to really tease out commonalities (and delineate differences).
But I could totally see 'SE Asian cuisine' implemented well: a menu that's divided into categories like, for instance, 'sour soups' (or why not a tasting of sour soups from around the region?), or 'fermented fish as primary flavor' (OK, that's not gonna sell with most of America), or 'rice cakes in all their variations'. I could see this done by a very savvy and knowledgeable chef in a sort of upscale setting (to accomodate tasting plates) - and it would be aimed at sophisticated diners. (Or without tasting plates, I would want a menu offering guidance as to what to pair with what when ordering).
But the flavor profiles of the dishes would have to be true to their homes, ie not tom yam gong red the way Malaysians make it, and not Vietnamese specialties too sour, the way Thais make them.
Simon Bao says
Andrea, you emphasized, "Joel is asking about what happens when restaurants formalize the notion of a Southeast Asian cuisine on their menus. How does that change the way people perceive culture and flavors? "
If one really uses the phrase "SE Asian cuisine," singular, one misleads people. About both cultures and flavors. It's troubling, disturbing, alarming when chefs or restaurants or foodies who should all know better speak of a geographic region as if it's a culture, a language, a people, a cuisine. There simply is no such thing as a "SE Asian cuisine."
If a chef knows that, but wants to go ahead and develop a restaurant and menu that represent the cuisines of the region... well, that might be OK. That might even serve to clarify people's perceptions about the cultures and flavors. Probably not but... it *could* happen.
Seems perilous to me though. It was Season 4 of Top Chef when 3 chefs steeped in the cuisines and dishes and flavors of SE Asia tried exactly that, opening Mai Buddha. And gave viewers one of the more tragi-comic Top Chef episodes ever.
Al says
Robyn:
"tease out commonalities ... delineate differences"
EXACTLY!
It would be a pretty sophisticated place that could do both, but I would go there - to enjoy and to learn.
Al
Robyn says
Excellent point Simon ... but by the same token the phrases 'Thai cuisine' and 'Malaysian cuisine' and 'Indonesian cuisine' mislead people - in these instances you're also mashing together disparate cultures, religions, ethnicities who in many cases see themselves as quite distinct (we could get into the ignorance of minority cuisines here).
I want to be cognizant of the fact that for many people the differences in the region are too vast and overwhelming to take in all at once, and offer a way in for them.
So - how about a restaurant offering samples of Southeast Asian cuisineS?
Simon Bao says
Robyn, the phrases Malaysian Cuisine, Indonesian Cuisine, Thai Cuisine may be simplifications, and may be a bit misleading... But they don't mislead on the grand scale of "SE Asian Cuisine." They aren't willfully misleading.
A place offering samples of SE Asian cuisines, that *can* be great. Think of a good noodle bar, one that doesn't blend or combine, doesn't serve "hybrids" or Bastard Dishes - but offers good, properly made, authentic samples from all the cuisines.
Robyn says
Simon, depends on who's doing the labeling, right? Cristang Malaysians and Shan Thais might see a little willfullness involved...
Curious what you think of David Chang's Ssam bar etc? There's a bit of hybridization going on there and it's very well received. (I'm not passing judgment, BTW.)
Andrea Nguyen says
Robyn, if you can get a reservation at David Chang's Ssam bar, I'll fly to meet you in NYC!
Everyone -- speaking of NYC, let's consider Jean Georges Vongerichten's Spice Market restaurant in the West Village. It has a menu that runs from India through Southeast Asia up to Shanghai and eastward into Japan. You can order samosa, Viet halibut cha ca La Vong, Thai shrimp tod mun pla, Nonya laksa, tempura and Shanghai noodles with tofu.
Does that work?
The Spice Market menu is available here:
http://www.jean-georges.com/
Chris says
I agree with Robyn - by all means, talk about commonalities and tease out linking ingredients and categories, but don't misrepresent what the dishes taste like on their home turf.
It seems to me that 'Southeast Asian cuisine' has much the same ring as 'Indian food' or 'Italian food' - in that many use it as shorthand parlance in conversation, but only the foodies know exactly how much of a gloss and lumping-together it is as a term.
Anyone else remember this scene from the animated series King Of The Hill, when Hank Hill's new Laotian neighbour drops by to say hi to Hank and his buddies?
Hank Hill: So are you Chinese or Japanese?
Minh Souphanousinphone: No, we are Laotian.
Bill Dauterive: The ocean? What ocean?
Kahn Souphanousinphone: From Laos, stupid! It's a landlocked country in South East Asia between Vietnam and Thailand, population approximately 4.7 million!
[all ponder this statement in silence for a few seconds]
Hank Hill: So....are you Chinese or Japanese?
Andrea Nguyen says
Very funny, Chris! Love King of the Hill. Life does often reduce itself to absurdity.
Diane says
This is a great question! I cook a lot of Indian cuisine, and the same question applies. I would no more consider food from Delhi a stand-in for food from Kerala, than I would food from Italy a substitute for food from Denmark. On the other hand, if some one says, "let's go get Indian," it gives me an idea of what to expect. It's an inaccurate and lazy short-hand, but it is still useful.
So it's wrong. On the other hand, it is also a term that signals certain flavor connotations and some loose commonalities. And there is some "bleed." Malaysian food is similar in some ways to southern Thai. And northern Thai is similar in some ways to Laotian. I think in some ways the term is useful as a marketing device, as it opens the door to people who might never try - say, Laotian food, or Filipino food if these were stand-alone restaurants, but might in fact try a more pan-Asian presentation. It gets those not as familiar with the cuisine to start tasting and exploring.
Andrea Nguyen says
That's a good point, Diane. What we need are more talented, gutsy restaurateurs and chefs and a dining public willing to learn.
Al says
Nowadays, the restaurateur would have to have courage. Here in Baltimore, places that serve Pad Thai AND Pot Stickers AND Sushi do quite well.
In the last 10-12 years I have seem four nice Vietnamese restaurants "fold" or simply give up trying to serve a viet menu.
I love to explore the "nooks and crannies" of Asian cuisines, but even among my friends who like good food I am largely alone.
Al
Andrea Nguyen says
Oh Al, you hit the nail right on the head! If only all of us lived in the same city. Sounds like your Baltimore restaurants know what their customers want, Chinese, Thai and Japanese -- the most popular Asian foods these days.
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marlon says
I want to be cognizant of the fact that for many people the differences in the region are too vast and overwhelming to take in all at once, and offer a way in for them.