I’m traveling right now in Asia, tasting and talking to lots of locals about street food, ingredients, and culture. Back in the States, my old friend Simon B. gave me a heads up on a recipe from this week’s Rachel Ray’s TV show: Phunky BBQ Pho with Pork.
Many of us on this site try to parse good food from bad, authentic food from inauthentic stuff. Standing in our way toward better informing one another are poor media productions such as this segment of the Rachel Ray.
Did you see it? Rachel Ray's pho recipe is described with this sell: “This Thai-inspired soup is loaded with exotic flavors!” She says on the show that it's Vietnamese but the recipe says otherwise.
With all the money that backs up the Rachel Ray Show, can’t anyone get the ethnicity right? Or, do all Asians look and cook the same?! Fact checkers, personal and research assistants to Rachel Ray should do their homework.
Pho is not Thai. It’s Vietnamese. Pho is in dictionary so it’s not hard to get the low-down.
I’ve got no qualms about people coming up with authentic and inauthentic renditions of food as long as they stay true to the original to some extent. Rachel Ray’s Phunky BBQ Pho with Pork calls for garlic, angel hair pasta, and plum and hoisin sauce, among other ingredients such as canned chicken broth and ginger.
The pork is seared and then cooked in the oven with broth. Is that the BBQ part? No, she puts hoisin on it at the end in the bowl.
No fish sauce, though the garnishes of red onion, mint, cilantro, bean sprouts, and Sriracha brings the pho a tiny closer to being pho.
Angel hair pasta? What decade do we live in? At least try a flat noodle like linguine to get the shape closer to banh pho rice noodles!
It’s a funky recipe all right and I’m rather appalled that the producers of the Rachel Ray show would such an injustice to pho noodle soup.
Ray touts the magic of EVOO (extra virgin olive oil) to making food extra good. I wish that her show producers would go the extra mile for Asian food. It doesn't have to be super authentic Asian cooking but at least teach people something valuable, not funky.
Rachel Ray’s fans deserve better. So does America.
For more on pho, check the pages in the Pho Essentials category.
Kao says
What a nightmare. I can't believe they actually did that. I need a hot bowl of pho to console me now.
ravenouscouple says
Great commentary..America does deserve better! Bravo!
Bsquared2 says
And you expected something different? Besides her trying (and failing) on Vietnamese food, I don't think anybody takes her seriously anyway.
Thuy says
Wow... I don't know what to feel about this. Food is always evolving but to go from rice noodles to pasta is going too far. I can understand someone needing a good substitution but it isn't even in the same taste catagory. I think this is just as bad as Emeril Lagasse's version.
Tofucustard.blogspot.com says
I feel upset after reading this. 🙁 Rachel Ray fail.. e____e
Donkey Kong says
In the words of the great Gordon Ramsay, You Donkey!
Did anyone take her cooking seriously in the first place? If this were Sandra Lee, at least she would use instant pho noodles in top ramen type packets or canned pho broth. Just say'n
I can't wait until Ray Ray tries her hand at Vietnamese Pizza!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ti%E1%BA%BFt_canh
sunflower says
Thank you Andrea for this post. Give me the best chuckle of the day!
Can not tell you how frustrated this feel with many celebrity chefs bastardizing many S E Asian recipes. Same here in England.
This recipe from Rachel is outrageous.
Velops says
The recipe itself doesn't bother me as much as some of the comments people left about the recipe on one of her other sites.
http://www.rachaelraymag.com/Recipes/rachael-ray-magazine-recipes/rachael-ray-30-minute-meals/Phunky-Pho
I was dumbfounded when someone said that it tastes just as good, if not better than real pho.
Greg C says
Ray's following are like lambs being led to ..................
Really, the problem is her empire is all about marketing and capitalizing on trends and it's nothing about authenticity and culture. Her name for the pho says it all; a cutesy alliterative (Ph)unky pho, pull in the BBQ crowd even though there's absolutely no BBQ to it. Don't even get me going on angel hair.
It's a positive to see that pho has made it's way to the messengers to the masses, it's just too bad that one messenger messes with it.
twitter.com/aqnguyen says
I had a double espresso before posting on Rachel Ray's Phunky BBQ Pho w/ Pork rec but all yr comments rip her up!
Quyen says
I don't understand why is even has a cooking show to begin with. Now I understand why Bourdain hates her so much.
Diane says
It's a cynical marketing ploy.
I cook a lot of (authentic) Thai food. I've noticed that since it is popular, there's a push to call anything "Thai" that is vaguely SE Asian in flavoring. Peanuts? Thai. Lime? Thai. Ginger? Thai. Hoisin sauce? Thai. Ummmm...OK. Not a cilantro root or piece of galangal in sight.
Gack!
Tina says
"And YES, don't buy the extra hot sauce. Franks Red hot or tabasco gives the same effect and is probably already in your pantry."
http://www.rachaelraymag.com/Recipes/rachael-ray-magazine-recipes/rachael-ray-30-minute-meals/Phunky-Pho#
Jerry says
Oh.. Wait until Anthony Bourdain gets ahold of this.... 🙂
trinh says
Well said.
Sharon says
This is about as bad as when Guy Fieri went to have "pho soup" in Michigan on Diners, Drive-ins, and Dives. Here's the recipe from that episode: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/diners-drive-ins-and-dives/pho-soup-recipe/index.html
turk fontaine says
Thai restaurants have multiplied like Starbucks in the last ten to fifteen years. The Vietnamese restaurants are way outnumbered. And I hate to say it, but Americans are woefully uninformed about any Asian food that is not Chinese, or more accurately, Americanized Chinese.
As more people become familiar with Thai food, but not the map of S.E. Asia, it's easy to understand how they can lump dishes together that come from very different places and cultures.
it reminds me of an episode of 'King Of Yhe Hill: Hank Hill and next door neighboor, William "Bill" Fontaine De la Tour D'Haute Rive, are asking Kahn, who's new to the block where he's from:
HANK: So, are ya Chinese or Japanese? KAHN: I'm Laotian. BILL: The ocean? KAHN: I'm from LAOS, you dumb hillbilly! It's a land locked country in S.E. Asia. HANK: So, are ya Chinese or Japanese?
Simon Bao says
This is the Simon who alerted Andrea to this nonsense from Rachael Ray. I wish I had a photo or screen capture of her Phunky Pho, because the dish may just deserve inclusion in The Gallery of Regrettable Food. America has a long-standing tradition of taking otherwise edible ingredients and turning them into something shitastic and regrettable. And Rachael's up to her neck in it.
If you have not visited The Gallery of Regrettable Food lately, here's a reminder to do so. Mr. Lileks continues to update it with new edible sorrows. The site is Safe For Work, but your own responses to what you see in the gallery might not be.
http://www.lileks.com/institute/gallery/index.html
diane says
Thanks for sharing Andrea.
Watching that Pho segment with Andrea gave me the goosebumps and was infuriating. I can't show this to my Mom. Rachael's Phunky Pho is Phucked-Up. That's what I call it.
Rachel Ray's Phucked-Up Pho.
God Damn does this woman have any decent researchers for her show. Three strikes, the producer should be ousted!
diane says
oh darn it. I meant to say this "pho segment from Rachel gave me goosebumps"!
I'm so pissed, I can't type straight!
Simon Bao says
Simon here again. Just to make myself plain and obvious, I have absolutely no problem with anyone playing with their food, or playing around with Pho. I'm not any kind of traditionalist when it comes to ingredients or techniques, and I don't care about the ancestry or formal qualifications of any whosoever cook that may be experimenting with my beloved Pho. I do all kinds of things with Pho broths and to bowls of Pho that would have traditionalists up in arms and calling for my marrow bones.
But here is the thing about Rachael Ray's Phunky Pho. I've seen other failed attempts at Pho recipes, failed attempts at adapting Pho, failed attempts at creating new kinds of Pho. I have not seen a complete and total FAIL on this scale before. Just for starters, Ray has no idea what Pho is in the first place, and seems to think it's just some kind of general noodle soup, albeit with a specific set of garnishes and condiments. She comes up with a failure of an idea for a pork Pho, fails with her choice of ingredients and fails with some real sloppy technique, and in her knowledge of ingredients and technique, and fails in communicating anything accurate or useful to the audience.
And then puts up a recipe that compounds her errors with a few new failures of its very own. Take a second and careful look at that recipe if you dare. Focus on that first sentence in the instructions if you like, and ask just how long that pasta must take to boil. How long do you simmer the braising liquid, chicken broth, water, garlic and ginger - only for as long as it takes to cook angel hair pasta? Where in heavens name are "the smoky pork strips" coming into this picture from?
If anyone wants to make Rachael Ray's life a misery, alert the Barbecue forums and bloggers and communities about this. Those BBQ people REALLY take things seriously - they are the scariest of all the Foodie species - and I'd love to see what they make of her Barbecue Pho.
Dennis says
this is what I sent to askthecook at Rachel's site:
how can you folks get so much wrong with a recipe?
Phó is Vietnamese and the recipe says Thai?
what's with braising the pork? in my experience, phó is more frequently made with beef and it is definitely not braised...it is simmered.
chicken broth? it should be beef broth or, if actually using pork, pork broth! chicken broth with chicken phó! but chicken broth with pork?
where is the fish sauce? where are the sliced jalapeños?
have any of you actually eaten phó? if I were served something like this at a phó restaurant, I would send it back, not pay and leave immediately.
I understand that this is supposed to be an easy recipe but IMHO, if someone thought this was phó, they might never actually try the delicious authentic dish!
please research your recipes more thoroughly!
diane says
Simon- WORD!
thank you brother, thank you.
and thank you Andrea for sharing this!
Simon Bao says
Here's a question for anyone interested in pursuing it. If you did want to make a Pork Pho, how would you do it?
And what would make that soup a legitimate heir to the name Pho, rather than being another version of Hu Tieu?
I can think of one time and place where this may have come up, within recent years. Vietnamese friends who live in Oxford, UK, told me that during Great Britain's outbreak of Mad Cow Disease/BSE, beef on the bone was nearly impossible to get. And beef bones for making Pho, out of the question. Anyone who wanted Pho in those years either lunched in another country, or made their Pho from some other animal. Probably Chicken Pho, possibly Mutton Pho, but might have been Pork Pho.
Anyone ever make a Pork Pho?
Simon Bao says
Responding to Dennis... those are a few of the Fails in Ray's recipe, indeed. But the idea of braising pork shoulder - when simmering is better suited - that didn't bother me as much as the idea of braising the meat in some basically unflavored chicken broth. That broth could, in theory, be a great homemade broth but we all know better - and the average viewer is going to be braising that meat in whatever comes out of some cans of College Inn. No onion. The ginger is added AFTER the meat is taken out of the braising liquid. No fish sauce, no sugar, no cinnamon, no cloves, no star anise, no other potential aromatics or flavorings.
But even that doesn't trouble me as much as the fact that, after braising a 1-1/2 pound hunk of pork shoulder in a quart of chicken broth, Ray made no effort at skimming any fat from the surface of the broth. Made no mention of it on TV. The online recipe never mentions getting all that pork fat out of the broth. That very scrupulous skimming that any pot of pho requires - doesn't even come up.
You've seen what you get when you buy pork shoulder from Acme. Even boneless, that thing is still packing a lot of fat throughout. Fat which liquifies after 2 hours of braising in the oven. Liquifies into a thick pool floating atop the broth. It would look like BP had been drilling for oil in your pho pot and had a well blow out on them.
If you neglect to get all that liquid pork fat out of your hot broth, and just spoon that over the noodles and meat and start slurping... maybe we should call the after-effects of that "Rachael's Phunky Runs."
Pepy @Indonesia Eats says
OMG, I cant believe Pho is being misleading as Thai food. C'mon just because it's SE Asian, it doesn't mean they are the same.
I feel irritated sometimes so many celebrity chefs destroy SE Asian recipes. Just because it's peanut sauce, it's Thai. Seriously, most of SE Asian countries have their signature peanut sauce.
Robyn says
Andrea, I love it when you get worked up about something! And yes, you all look the same. Didn't you know that? 😉
And Jerry -- don't get me started on A Bourdain. On one of his Bangkok shows he went to a Laotian restaurant with a white-guy "expert" who referred to the "Lao region of Thailand" and described Laos as the "Mississippi of Thailand".
The lack of fact-checking in food magazines as well as on MANY food TV shows is astonishing.
Kharina Sterner Jones says
Yeah, I saw the recipe and also emailed ask the cook. I sent them a link to Wikipedia for save them time for research, and mentioned calling it an Asian dish is lazy - you wouldn't call a Memphis styles BBq just "American BBQ" now, would you? That is seriously dumbing a nation of foodlovers down.
marla {family fresh cooking} says
Mass market media can be so creepy. We will stick to folks like you to give us valuable information! 🙂
twitter.com/aqnguyen says
Pho sure, it's great to read how many people are saying, "What the pho?" re: Rachel Ray's Phunky BBQ Pho w/ Pork recipe.
We gotta talk about this stuff openly and not just be nice and quiet about it. Uppity Asians unite.
@Simon Bao: You love to stoke the flames and stir that pot!
Kim at Rustic Garden Bistro says
Well said, Andrea!
Some good (Non-Vietnamese) friends of mine made chicken pho awhile back, and had the audacity to say on Facebook that "it sucked." Well, maybe they didn't say it SUCKED, but they were definitely not impressed. Which kinda felt like a personal stab at the Vietnamese food culture. And I'm Vietnamese so I take that stuff seriously.
Then these friends admitted to using the Emeril recipe... COMPLETELY unauthentic. So I asked them: Did you use anise? No... Did you use thai basil? No...
Well "duh," guys. I don't try an "authentic vegan tofurkey Thanksgiviging recipe" and bitch about your terrible American Thanksgiving turkey tradition... Do I?! No...
Sorry, I'm rambling now. I'll stop.
Thanks for the great article. RTing to everyone I know.
[K]
ThirstyPig says
Andrea. . .thank you for sharing. It is appalling that this lack of understanding of ethnicities and culture is still happening in this day in age. You'd figure celebrities, politicians, and the media would more understanding.
Good Blog!
Jimmy C | The Thirsty Pig
http://www.thethirstypig.com
http://twitter.com/thirstypig
Thuy says
For some of you that are going beserk over the broth... beef is very expensive in VN. I have been to many phở joints in VN that uses pork broth but they added slices of beef. You can get a decent broth using pork bones. It is favorful but the favor isn't as strong as beef broth. The color is lacking too. When you go to restaurants... you can't expect that your broth is 100% beef. There could be pork or chicken added for higher profit margin. It could be diluted beef broth with MSG.
Has anyone ever thought that phở is a Viet version of the French's "pot au feu"? Google it and see how it looks. Change it up a little and add some noodles, some broth... and voila... phở. Anyone seen a bowl of phở made in the northern parts of VN? What we are use to seeing in America doesn't resemble the original version of phở. Google it: pho bac.
Food changes whenever you introduce to another culture or country. People tweek it to their taste preference. When Viets and Chinese moved into the former land of Kampachea Krom(lower Mekong delta region), phở changed because of the abundance of arable lands. When phở was introduce to Thailand, ppl there added sugar. Laos people add ketchup and shrimp (I have seen some add lettuce). When Viets moved to Korea, Koreans added pickled onions. You have to expect it to change due to taste or to what's available locally.
Andrea Nguyen says
Thuy -- what you say is true about pho in VN. Many cooks cut their beef broth with pork bones. However, there are some places in Hanoi where pho Bac is made with only beef. You pay a little more.
There are people who think that pho is like pot au feu but they are NOT the same. No spices are used in pot au feu. I disagree that you can voila make pho with pot au feu.
Of course food changes depending on location and even time. I believe that you mean kimchi is added to Korean pho? I've seen it on the side in K-town in Los Angeles.
However, our point here is that Rachel Ray had the wherewithal to make a credible bowl of pho for American audiences. What she did in this recipe has nothing to do with availability of ingredients or prevailing taste preferences. we have all the ingredients to make excellent pho in the U.S. Rachel Ray went out on a strange limb.
She could have made pho ga (chicken pho) with supermarket ingredients!
Thuy says
Andrea, I am not saying that pot au feu is the same as phở, but the technique is. I don't think it is a far stretch that phở is the Viet version of pot au feu. Instead of veggies, Viets use spices to bring about flavor. (European colonalism started because they were looking for a spice route.)
RR did do horrible thing to phở by calling it Thai and then slapping us in the face with her recipe. But maybe she is trying to introduce the large majority of people to a cuisine they aren't accustom to with her version. LOL. Americans lack in culture because if it doesn't sound Italian or made by an Italian-American, alot won't even try/eat it.
Rasa Malaysia says
These big shots TV chefs or real chefs, who are not Asian-food trained, should really just stop making Asian food on TV, it's really laughable, not to mention sending out all the wrong information!
I recently watched an episode of Top Chef and one of the contestants made Kung Pao Shrimp, it was very sad how she made it and the judges picked her as the winner for that dish!!! Sigh.
Lidia Sianturi says
Personally I dont like her since the very first time I saw her show..Too much talking and gestures. And after reading this, I think that she knows nothing about SE foods. Oh my..pls do research before making a show.
Vibey says
I have only now stumbled on your wonderful blog... just in time to be outraged at this travesty! Shame, Rachel Ray, shame, and word to both Andrea and Simon. What decade do we live in, indeed.
How can Rachel Ray get away with this, I wonder? I'm thinking it's her demographic. For example, in my last trip to the US I had beef and tendon pho in NYC, but would not have been easily able to find the ingredients in NC, where I also visited. This recipe wouldn't pass muster here in Australia, where not only have the Vietnamese proudly made their gastronomic mark, but so much of the population at large is very familiar with what proper pho should be.
Alison@streetfood says
I agree with Vibey - in Australia (and Sydney where I am) there is a great knowledge of what pho is, let alone what good pho is. I've had various degrees of 'good; pho in Vietnam too. However nothing I think can excuse it being called Thai!
Valerie says
I only caught the end of that segment, so I wasn't aware it was that bad. It really does sound appalling.
Charlotte says
Preach it sister. Thank you Andrea for posting this. It's frustrating how some people just lump all Asian cuisine together. I've never taken Rachel Ray very seriously but this is just ridiculous. I can't believe there are legions of RR followers! She has a platform that reaches a lot of people. You'd think she would at least do some decent research before tackling foods that she knows nothing about! It's just so frustrating!
Dave Smith says
very entertaining rant on what sounds like a truly horrific dish.
One can understand the simplifications (I guess) given her target audience,
but why not base it from an actual recipe at the very least?
As some one noted, how much better off would you be if you just bought an instant mix!
My partner and I have just started cooking Vietnamese food (thanks for the cookbook ;)), happily we live in San Diego so we have access to a number of decent Vietnamese grocers, so it is easy to get even some of the more obscure herbs fresh.
But it is sometimes difficult to convince our friends and acquaintances to shop outside the very comfortable circle of traditional chain supermarkets, even if they love the food we make, or to do so more than once.
What I detest most about the RR Phunky Pho etc. is how it both caters to and institutionalizes this sort of conservatism about both ingredients and cross-cultural interactions.
Ms Baklover says
I don't know whether to cry, laugh, or puke. "Funky" as in "that old takeout at the back of the fridge", methinks. Nothing wrong with fusion, but this is just lazy, and made worse that she is not a college student rummaging in the back of the pantry, but a TV chef.
Nguyen G Nguyen says
I am disgusted with all the food shows on tv. They don't have any respect for ethnic foods. It seems like "In the world of the blinds, the cyclob is king!". They just do anything and say anything, and the uninformed audiences ooh and aah! Rechel Ray is not the only one. Has anybody seen "The Great" Emeril Lagassi cooked Vietnamese? It's their shows and they can play with the foods all they want to, but they should not call the dishes that they create by the original names. As a matter of fact, I find it dishonesty, or lying. It's like they were selling a blender, but called it a food processor.
I might have misspelled the names, but I don't care. Why should I?
Simon Bao says
About the vague similarity between the sound of "Pho" and "Pot au Feu," and so many people's implicit or explicit suggestion that French cuisine and a French dish are the origin of our beloved noodle soup...
I don't much care exactly how the Viet word originated. Here's what I do know.
The French were all still painting in caves and running in fear from fire when enterprising cooks in Vietnam were already making the early ancestors of our modern-day pho.
No Vietnamese cook requires any French influence to know that marrow bones, knuckle bones, neck bones, spinal columns, hocks, split feet and chopped tails all make exceptionally rich-bodied broths. So too does the skin of the critter, some critters, so get some of that in the pot too.
Nor does one need to consult officials of the Colonial Regime to know that some of the toughest and most problematic bits of meat on an animal become tender and savory when simmered in that rich broth. Shank meat, aside from the leather, almost the toughest stuff around, on any animal. Tail meat. Chunks of chuck and shoulder. Rump meat. Brisket. And what an absolutely brilliant thing to do with tendon and tripe - simmer those in the broth as well and hope people will eat them.
What we call Pho today was, in previous centuries, surely made from goats, sheep, pigs, deer, elderly and retired stew hens, and every other kind of 4-legged or feathered creature.
The French did bring their meat and dairy cattle, in great numbers. But the moment Vietnamese saw those cattle being offloaded from French ships, they were already licking their chops in anticipation of some kick-ass noodle soup to be made from the tails and shanks and bones and scraps and discards the French soldiers didn't want.
P.J. says
Andrea, I am a culinary instructor, trained extensively in France years ago.(also had a published book with Ten Speed Press) I bought your Asian Dumpling book, which is well written with excellent explanations. I am fairly clueless about all things pertaining to Asian cooking and found your book to be superb. I am now buying the Vietnamese cookbook for myself and a friend. I so agree with you on the ignorance, stupidity and fraud involved in cooking taught by these non trained television chefs. It is a dis-service to those viewers that tune in thinking they are learning something about cooking when they watch Rachel Ray, or the Half-Baked Sandra Lee or even Stewart. Don't ever compromise yourself by getting involved with any of them either, do your own thing, maybe on PBS which is educational not vaudeville or better yet The Discovery Channel. You present excellent information packed books. You go girl!
DFM Marlink says
Some years back, (that talentless hack) Rachael Ray said that you could make any dish Chinese just by adding five-spice. Yeeeeaaahhh....
I'm, so very unfortunately, NOT AT ALL surprised to see Ray and her crew screwing up the cuisine of yet another culture.
Fern @ Life on the Balcony says
That's pretty weird that she uses Italian-style pasta. Dried Asian-style noodles are readily available, even in poorly stocked supermarkets in neighborhoods with no Asian population to speak of.
Fern @ Life on the Balcony says
"And I hate to say it, but Americans are woefully uninformed about any Asian food that is not Chinese, or more accurately, Americanized Chinese."
I don't think that's entirely accurate. Americans have a pretty good handle on Americanized versions of Chinese, Japanese, and to some extant, Korean and Thai. I mean, what American hasn't heard of sushi or teriyaki? I see Korean BBQ places in parts of town without a huge Asian population, so I assume they're frequented by at least some non-Koreans. And I see pad thai microwave meals in the supermarket. As unappetizing as that sounds, I assume that the availability of such food items means that they are somewhat accepted by the mainstream.
Holly Chase says
As this blog and other conscientious food writing makes abundantly clear: successful cooking is about consciously "being there."
Nielsen and program sponsors are far more concerned about how many viewers are glued to Rachel Ray than they are with the authenticity or quality of the dishes being assembled (rather than truly "cooked") in front of a camera.
Sadly, food TV has followed the pattern of TV in general-- reducing, not elevating, the level of discussion of any topic.
Like music, food is universally produced and consumed and can transcend cultural and political boundaries with ease. Leonard Bernstein knew it; so did Julia Child and the Romagnolis. But over the past 30 years, television, in particular FOOD TV, has missed huge opportunities for both sophisticated entertainment and education. Luckily, even if viewer cynicism has increased, those opportunities are still there. It's not too late for TV to realize its potential.
holly (at) almostitalian (dot) com
Simon Bao says
Andrea, before you move too far away from this topic, consider a few Pho-related questions...
Have you ever used tarragon to flavor a chicken Pho or other Pho made from poultry? I think I asked you this once before, but don't recall your answer. I ask because I do like it very much, the tarragon put to work both in building the broth and in garnishing the bowl when it's brought to table. I would not normally be a big fan of taking something from the European Herbarium and dropping it into my Pho, but for me tarragon is a success.
While considering tarragon, do you have any idea why that herb never made it into the Viet Herbarium? Why, with it's wonderful anise flavor, it never got adopted by Vietnamese? Or am I wrong, and tarragon was adopted in parts of Vietnam where it thrives and I never heard about it?
Along the lines of the tarragon, have you ever used ordinary chives as a last-minute garnish to a bowl of Pho, in place of any finely sliced onion that might otherwise be put in the bowl?
What do YOU think of the idea of "Seafood Pho?" I ask because that's one of the few things that prompt me to respond with a "Mmmmm... No." I'm at least that much of a traditionalist.
Unless one is simmering shark fins or skate wings, there's just no way to extract a rich, full-bodied stock from seafood, one that's full of the gelatin that's expected in Beef Pho, Poultry Pho, or a soup made from other substantial mammals. One can get tasty stocks from seafood, but they're thin stocks and they make thin broths.
One *can* put Pho noodles into a seafood soup, but to me that's just far too little to justify calling it a Seafood Pho.
Simon Bao says
Andrea, two more questions before putting this to bed...
First, Rachael Ray calls for using mint as a garnish for her Pork Pho. The very idea seems skeevy to me. Did she or a staffer get confused, or see mint listed with a Chicken Pho somewhere and just think it must be what goes with Pho? Or, do people out there actually use mint with something like a Pork Pho?
Second, Viets must be the only people on earth who start out making a beef or chicken stock and then a noodle soup, without getting peppercorns into the pot right up front. Any idea how or why peppercorns didn't get included with the other spices that are used to build the broth? I do use them, and after using them several times decided peppercorns do quite well in the pot, from the start, along with their sister spices.
It was a Jewish home cook noted for her soups who pointed that out to me, the absence of the peppercorns from published recipes. It shook her confidence in us. 🙂
twitter.com/aqnguyen says
Simon -- There have indeed been people who've made a pork pho, seafood pho, vegetarian pho, and one of my favs, chicken pho.
There were cows in VN before the French arrived. Viet people used them as draft animals, not for food. Then the French slaughtered cows for beef steaks and the chewy bits inspired pho.
Then people just took it in new directions. But the broth is always delicately clear and aromatic. And there are flat rice noodles.
Andrea Nguyen says
Thanks to all the smart and thoughtful and uppity comments that you've contributed. Greatly appreciate you sharing your vitriol, musings, and intelligent food spirit.
Makes my work extra satisfying.
Andrea Nguyen says
Simon, mint is good with chicken pho. It's traditional and tasty. At first thought, I wouldn't put tarragon in pho, though it's an interesting concept. Tarragon is one of my favorite herbs.
Thai basil is not a traditional herb with pho but it's caught on big time. Ask a Hanoi person about the herb garnishes and they'll let you know the rights and wrongs. They may say, "Thai basil with pho? That's southern and it just doesn't taste like pho!"
There are certain pho fundamentals and I'd say you need:
1) Clear broth flavored with spices and lots of umami fish sauce (if it's not vegetarian)
2) Flat rice noodles
3) Some fresh garnishes such as cilantro, scallion and thinly sliced onion
You can tweak it in many directions and I've seen fried shallot on top but that's more like hu tieu. For fun, try the instant pho sold at Vietnamese markets.
I reviewed some a while back:
http://www.vietworldkitchen.com/blog/2008/07/instant-pho-noodles-taste-off.html
Simon Bao says
Andrea, do give tarragon a try in some future bowl of pho, and especially a poultry Pho. And tell me what you think.
Chances are no one will ever persuade me there's such a thing as Seafood Pho, but I will accept the idea of a Vegan "Pho," as long as we put the word Pho in those quotations.
Coming up with a substitute for animal flesh is not a problem, there's so many forms of tofu, seitan and tempeh, different tastes and textures, all 3 can go into a single bowl. Offer the same variety we usually like to see in a bowl.
It's a Vegetarian Pho broth that is the challenge. I know, I've been down this road. But only as a favor, not as an inspiration.
maggie b says
This is pretty bad! I'd say it's an Epic Phail ... her Phlunky Pho.
Normally I like Rachel Ray but this is definitely a bad judgment call on her part. Andrea maybe you could write her a letter...
Diane says
I love reading these comments! I don't know a ton about pho (although I know Ray's version is seriously scary...), but I always thought thai basil was a traditional accompaniment. probably because I love it so much and would eat it on cardboard practically. Interesting to know it's not traditional.
Donkey Kong says
No need to skim fat, use a fat separator. The one I use is an Oxo Good Grips Fat Separator 4-Cup. About 3.75 Cups = 1 bowl of pho broth for me. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002YTGIQ
All of this reading about pho has me craving for some. It pho for me this weekend =)
Jason says
A lot of people post comments along the line of, "I cannot believe she did that." I can. I don't even bat an eye at the notion. Her show is terrible. Her cooks books are terrible. She appeals to the blissfully ignorant Caucasian demographic of North America.
Madeline says
A great post! Food Network as well as most media and network is lacking Asian representation - sometimes correct representation. Did you check out FN's webpage on lunar new year? Last year there was a lot of boo boos in information too. I hope it would be better this year.
I wrote a post about them via yelp: http://www.yelp.com/user_details_review_search?userid=frRDi420JPvtPY6BckujGg&q=food+network
Jenny @ Musings and Morsels says
How disgraceful! I wholeheartedly agree with you Andrea; I too have no qualms about food that strays from authenticity (so long as it tastes good...and anyhow, with travel, comes differences and various foreign inspirations) although it must still respect the essence of the dish. There's absolutely nothing remotely 'pho'-like in Rachael's dish. I can tell you I'm absolutely horrified. It's true, we live in the 21st century, certain ethnic ingredients are really not that difficult to find. A local supermarket will surely stock some of the basic pho constituents.
Kim says
I completely understand RR's food: "uncomplicated", "great tasting" home cooking! For that, I commend her. This recipe however is not any of that! It is neither uncomplicated nor great tasting! What this is, is a Pho King hot mess! Rachel Ray, please stick to what you know best and leave the the fusion cooking to those who can do it without completely defiling it!
Nutrition to Kitchen says
*SIGH*
This recipe is so not pho real on so many levels. 😉
Thanks for posting this Andrea!
rrfan210 says
just for the record... on the show itself, rachael ray does refer to the recipe as a "vietnamese style soup". i'm assuming it mentioned thai elsewhere, but at least it clears rachael's name. 😉 girl knows her stuff.
MTC says
I left a message on her page with a link to this post expressing my offense at her horrible recipe. It needs to be approved by a moderator though, so I'm not confident that it's going to get posted.
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If she can get the Sriracha sauce and hoisin sauce, there's no excuse to get rice noodles -_-
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I don't understand why is even has a cooking show to begin with. Now I understand why Bourdain hates her so much.
marlon says
The Vietnamese restaurants are way outnumbered. And I hate to say it, but Americans are woefully uninformed about any Asian food that is not Chinese, or more accurately, Americanized Chinese.